Where’s that guy that always jumps on these posts with a bunch of pseudo science to explain why his carnivore diet is the real secret to not getting cancer, or some shit?
He was here last time the first set of studies were published to try and convince people plant based diets don’t work.
Hi! I think you mean me.
He was here last time the first set of studies were published to try and convince people plant based diets don’t work.
I never said that. I believe plant based diets have a demonstrated track record of being better then the standard western diet in terms of health outcomes.
Where’s that guy that always jumps on these posts
I’ve already made my comments on this study available on a previous post about it. here
with a bunch of pseudo science to explain why his carnivore diet is the real secret to not getting cancer, or some shit?
That hasn’t been demonstrated in the literature, we have early days studies using a a strict ketogenic/fasting protocol and glutamine inhibitors for glioblastomas with very promising results (still waiting for everyone to die to get the full benefit recorded), right now its only “many more years” then standard of care (6 months). It’s important to note this literature does not require carnivore, it could be plant based keto.
I have posted about people’s individual anecdotes about their individual health journeys and diet, but that is hardly science, and I would never bring that up in response to someone else’s post.
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What savage puts avocado in a food bowl… but leaves it in the skin?
The question science isn’t ready to answer
The sleeves looking like they’re touching the food makes me uncomfortable.
How are you people able to see any detail?
I see a tiny thumbnail on Lemmy and then I don’t see the image at all on the page.
Eternity
Good eyes?
Gotta get that roughage in your diet somehow.
If it’s ripe enough, you can kinda swirl it into mush inside the shell- so maybe it’s there to be a dip for the crudités?
I can’t quite see the skin. Maybe it’s a carefully scooped out avo half? I’m just wishfully speculating here.
You can see the dark skin around the avocado flesh
If it wasn’t cut into squares…
Just wash them off pretty good to remove pesticides.
Sucks i dont eat fruits or vegetables except potatoes…
Not sure if you’ve tried this already, but might be worth trying some vegetables prepared in different ways if you haven’t experimented with them a bit.
In my house, vegetables are usually sauteed with seasoning and served as part of a mixed dish (Chinese cuisine, essentially), and while I have some I like and dislike, it gave me an appreciation for veggies from a young age.
Not sure of your background, but when I ask Americans who say they hate vegetables how their family used to cook them, it’s almost always just boiled or steamed to be mushy and flavorless.
It’s surprising how quick someone can go from hating carrots to loving carrots just by drizzling them with a bit of oil, sprinkling some salt and pepper, and baking for a few minutes. Never have to have steamed carrots again.
Also for people who prefer roasted, but don’t want to go through the effort of waiting for an oven to preheat: using an air fryer has changed how I cook vegetables. It’s amazing how “what if we made a convention oven, but smaller” is actually really helpful because it heats up super fast. Very convenient to roast them with an air fryer and very tasty
Yeah, I didn’t like many vegetables until I started trying to cook for myself and started doing roast vegetables every chance I could. You don’t even need them to be fresh - if all you can afford is frozen, you can do those, you just might want to give them a little more time.
Frozen vegetables taste best. The frozen stuff is always the best.
There is nothing you can do…
Stop being an asshole. Try it
That’s a lot of variety in one bowl.
About to go read the study, but my guesses are;
- Probably using a food diary or similar recall based method to figure out food frequency
- Likely not controlling for whether people are health focussed or not
- The cancer link will be measured by risk of death by cancer, obfuscating whether the individual seeks treatment
- The plant heavy nature will be vague, grouping all plants together rather than any specificity, eg sugar beets and kale both count the same
Back shortly to update.
This is an article that talks about multiple studies with differing methodology, including one new one. Posting without reading the article does not help actually advance discussion in general. Posting without reading just reaffirm existing beliefs
For instance, the new study itself did not use the term “plant heavy”, they looked at different sub groups
Yeah, here is the link to the original study BTW
https://ajcn.nutrition.org/article/S0002-9165(25)00328-4/fulltext
That link appears to be dead, I think this is the more canonical url
Good choice, the DOI is usually a better link to use, my bad.
Results
- Yes, data was derived from food frequency questionnaires, a known bad method for understanding real consumption.
- Definitely not controlling for health focus of participants
- Yep, only diagnosed cases were listed, so not checking everyone to see if they had cancer. This leaves room for someone to not have had it checked and it will simply not show up
- In this case they made several groups based on how much meat, but the vegetation was all grouped together.
This was also a religiously motivated study. The cohort was recruited from Seventh Day Adventists and that church has been involved in pushing unscientific propaganda about vegetarianism for decades. The influence goes much further, given that the bulk of the authors work for the Loma Linda University Medical Centre, a Seventh Day Adventist institution.
This is not a scientific study, this is religious lropaaganda.
Yes, this new study has limitations. The authors do note that and aren’t pretending otherwise. This is coming in the context of other studies with similar conclusions which the original article talks about. This new study is a singular imperfect data point, but is combined with other data points that point in the same direction.
What it is primarily helpful for is in that it has a large N value of 79,468 participants and the population they are looking at doesn’t partake in as many carcinogens that make it harder to tell cancer rates apart (which is both a strength and also a study limitation too)
From the study
This study has several other strengths. 1) This is probably the single cancer cohort with the largest number of vegetarians, and especially vegans, who have rarely been studied effectively for cancer incidence. This allows consistent definitions and methods to be applied across all variables; 2) in many studies of vegetarians, vegetarian diets may be relatively transient for some subjects, but less so in AHS-2; 3) the level of validation available for the main variables on which the assignment to vegetarian diets is based; 4) the relatively large Black subgroup in which vegetarian diets have rarely been studied. Race is always a co-variate in our statistical models; and 5) the absence (practically) of cigarette smoking, a common confounder for many cancers, and very little alcohol
There are also study limitations, the most prominent of which is still the relatively small numbers of less common cancers, particularly among the less common dietary patterns (vegans and pesco-vegetarians) that diminish statistical power; second, there is the relatively health-conscious low-meat-consuming reference group, the Adventist nonvegetarians, that also limits power; third, that we were able to measure dietary and other data only at study baseline and not during follow-up. Finally, there are the limitations of all observational studies, particularly the possibility of unmeasured confounding, which can be limited but never avoided
Yeah, so this study basically tells us nothing but can be used for propagandistic purposes. If I were a journal editor I would not publish a study that tells us nothing while being ripe for political and ideological use. It is unethical to act as if this is a purely scientific study when it obviously is not, and the editors of the journal are supposed to be experts in the field, they should be very aware of this issue and be taking appropriate steps.
No, it doesn’t tell us nothing. These kinds of limitations are not uncommon for nutrition studies. It just is weaker evidence that doesn’t tell everything we ever might want. Studies will always have some methodological limitations. There is always some factor you might be forgetting or could do better. Science doesn’t work by looking at induvidial studies alone. We take things in aggregate
That being said, of course things like RCTs will always be preferred and considered much stronger evidence. On that front, there have been some RCTs in other related health risk incidents with similar findings. For instance, I have read about some RCT studies for cardiovascular health. One meat industry funded review of RCT studies on cardiovascular risk for red meat found plant substitution improved predictors of cardiovascular health
Substituting red meat with high-quality plant protein sources, but not with fish or low-quality carbohydrates, leads to more favorable changes in blood lipids and lipoproteins.
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.118.035225#d3646671e1
Or from another review looking at larger changes
Nevertheless, several RCTs have examined the effect of vegetarian diets on intermediate risk factors of cardiovascular diseases (Table 1). In a meta-analysis of RCTs, Wang et al. (22) found vegetarian diets to significantly lower blood concentrations of total, LDL, HDL, and non-HDL cholesterol relative to a range of omnivorous control diets. Other meta-analyses have found vegetarian diets to lower blood pressure, enhance weight loss, and improve glycemic control to greater extent than omnivorous comparison diets (23-25). Taken together, the beneficial effects of such diets on established proximal determinants of cardiovascular diseases found in RCTs, and their inverse associations with hard cardiovascular endpoints found in prospective cohort studies provide strong support for the adoption of healthful plant-based diets for cardiovascular disease prevention
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/am/pii/S1050173818300240
I think I have reasonable grounds to disagree, but I don’t want to cause offense or upset, so to be clear I am not attacking you or your thought process, just the conclusions.
There has been a long history of these religious approaches to diet influencing scientific research. If we discount all science done by ideologically biased institutions such as those in this study the actual field looks very different. If we further discount known bad methodologies, for example food frequency questionnaires (FFQs) which are shown to be absolutely inaccurate in most cases, then we again find less support for the conclusion that plant based diets are better for humans than meat based diets. In fact, we will find that there are almost no interventional studies of any length that even potentially could tell us that a meat based diet is worse than a plant based diet.
In most cases the researchers fail the very first step of defining plant based, meat based, high carb, low carb, ketogenic, Mediterranean, and so on. The studies are all way too short, most being done over less than 12 weeks, and very few have any sort of cross over or similar control. Most of the studies are purely observational and have no intervention, so no change can seen as causally linked to an outcome. Most studies are funded in such a way as to bias the outcomes. Most studies are not preregistered. Many suffer from p hacking. Many have no clear outcome measure but instead target a proxy, for example blood cholesterol, but they do not actually look at the true target outcome, heart disease and death.
The whole field of nutritional science is unfortunately very unreliable at this time due to ideological and financial conflicts of interest. This study is a great example. Given that it is well known that FFQs are unreliable why was this study approved at the outset? Why was a further clarification of the actual diets of participants not taken at some point in the study, even from a subset? Why is this type of study funded, executed, and then passed through peer review? If this arrived on my desk I would not approve it for publication simple for methodological reasons. Why does the journal allow a title which is so provocative and clearly useful for pushing an agenda when their supposed scientific credibility are riding on their reputation as gatekeepers of truth?
If we had real science I would be keen to see it. This does not meet that level of quality and the continued publication of this type of unfit paper is dragging down the whole scientific endeavour. If we continue to allow people to claim to know what they cannot show we will end up believing anything and making grave mistakes in our choices about how to live.
