• squaresinger@lemmy.world
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    14 days ago

    I’m kinda surprised that pretty much nobody who commented here seems to have understood the point of the post.

    It wasn’t about readability at all.

    It was about designing APIs that the IDE can help you with.

    With RTL syntax the IDE doesn’t know what you are talking about until the end of the line because the most important thing, the root object, the main context comes last. So you write your full statement and the IDE has no idea what you are on about, until you end at the very end of your statement.

    Take a procedural-style statement:

    len(str(myvar))

    When you type it out, the IDE has no idea what you want to do, so it begins suggesting everything in the global namespace starting with l, and when you finish writing len(, all it can do is point out a syntax error for the rest of the line. Rinse and repeat for str and myvar.

    Object-oriented, the IDE can help out much more:

    myvar.tostring().length()

    With each dot the IDE knows what possible methods you cound mean, the autocomplete is much more focussed and after each () there are no open syntax errors and the IDE can verify that what you did was correct. And it you have a typo or reference a non-existing method it can instantly show you that instead having to wait until the end of the whole thing.

  • Deestan@lemmy.world
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    14 days ago

    Is string length len, length, size, count, num, or # ? Is there even a global function for length? You won’t know until you try all of them.

    This is Python basics, so the argument would be to optimize readability specifically for people who have zero familiarity with the language.

    (The other examples have the same general direction of readability tradeoff to the benefit of beginners, this one was just simplest to pick here)

    That’s a valid tradeoff to discuss, if discussed as a tradeoff. Here it is not. The cost to readability for anyone with language familiarity appear to be not even understood.

    • Frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      14 days ago

      The point of the article is about how IDE’s can’t validate certain things as you type them in this order. The example of a string length function could be replaced by any other API.

      • Eager Eagle@lemmy.world
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        14 days ago

        The example of a string length function could be replaced by any other API

        I don’t know about that, len is a built-in – like str, abs, bool. There are only a few of them and they’re well known by people familiar to the language (which seems to exclude the article author). Their use is more about the language itself than about what to expect from a particular API.

        In fact, most Python APIs that go beyond built-in usage actually look much more object-oriented with “left-to-right” object.method() calls. So this argument seems silly and goes away with some familiarity with that language.

  • FishFace@lemmy.world
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    14 days ago

    I’m always suspicious of people who say that a language is suboptimal and use as evidence some filthy one-liner. Maybe if you bothered to write some whitespace and didn’t write the language ignorant of its features (like generator expressions) you would end up with better code?

    sum(
        all(
            abs(x) >= 1 and abs(x) <= 3 for x in line
        ) and (
            all(x > 0 for x in line) or
            all(x < 0 for x in line)
        )
        for line in diffs
    )
    

    You no longer have to “jump back and forth” except one single time - you have to look to the end to see where line is coming from and then you can read the body of the main expression from start to finish.

    People don’t, in fact, read code from top to bottom, left to right; they read it by first looking at its “skeleton” - functions, control flow, etc - until finding the bit they think is most important to read in detail. That implies that “jumping back and forth” is a natural and necessary part of reading (and hence writing) code, and so is nothing to fear.

    There is still a slight advantage to not having to jump around, but consider the costs: in Javascript, map and filter are methods on Array and some other types. So how are you going to implement them for your custom iterable type? Do you have to do it yourself, or write lots of boilerplate? It’s easy in Python. It’s not bad in Rust either because of traits, but what this all means is that to get this, you need other, heavy, language features.

    In practice, you often know what a comprehension is iterating over due to context. In those situations, having what the comprehension produces be the most prominent is actually a boon. In these scenarios in Rust/JS you are left skipping over the unimportant stuff to get to what you actually want to read.

    • Eager Eagle@lemmy.world
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      14 days ago

      People don’t, in fact, read code from top to bottom, left to right

      100% this.

      This false premise is also why a few (objectively wrong) people defend writing long essays: functions with hundreds of lines and files with thousands; saying “then you don’t have to go back and forth to read it”, when in fact, no one should be reading it like a novel in the first place.

      Once you get used with list and dict comprehensions, they read just fine. Much like the functional approach is not really that readable for a newcomer either.

      • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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        14 days ago

        The blog post wasn’t about reading, but about writing. And people usually do write top-to-bottom, left-to-right.

        The whole point of the blog post was to write code that the IDE can help you with when writing. It didn’t go into readability even once.

    • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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      14 days ago

      Did we read the same blog post?

      Not a single time did OOP talk about readability. That was not a point at all, so I don’t know why you are all about readability.

      It was all about having a language that the IDE can help you write in because it knows what you are talking about from the beginning of the line.

      The issue with the horrible one-liner (and with your nicely split-up version) is that the IDE has no idea what object you are talking about until the second-to-last non-whitespace character. The only thing it can autocomplete is “diffs”. Up until you typed the word, it has no idea whether sum(), all(), abs(), <, >, or for-in actually exist for the data type you are using.

      If you did the same in Java, you’d start with diffs and from then on the IDE knows what you are talking about, can help you with suggesting functions/methods, can highlight typos and so on.

      That was the whole point of the blog post.

      • phutatorius@lemmy.zip
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        9 days ago

        Yep, and my takeaway from it is “don’t distort your syntax in order to allow yourself to be more dependent on an IDE.”

      • FishFace@lemmy.world
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        14 days ago

        I dunno, did we?

        Screenshot from the post

        I think rust’s iterator chains are nice, and IDE auto-complete is part of that niceness. But comprehension expressions read very naturally to me, more so than iterator chains.

        I mean, how many python programmers don’t even type hint their code, and so won’t get (accurate) auto-complete anyway? Auto-completion is nice but just not the be-all and end-all.

        • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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          14 days ago

          Fair, I missed one word. You missed the whole blog post.

          It’s a big difference between writing code and writin APIs, tbh. If you write crap code that’s your problem. If you write crap APIs it’s the problem of anyone using your API.

          • FishFace@lemmy.world
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            13 days ago

            The blog post is really about language design, because you definitely should not write a filter method for your custom iterable class in python; you should make it use the language’s interface’s for “being an iterable”. Language design involves APIs offered by the language, but isn’t really the purview of most people who write APIs.

            If a suggestion on language design would gain something at the cost of readability, anyone should be very skeptical of that.

            Those things together explain why I am evaluating the post mostly in terms of readability.