Well the assumption is that the Graphene team will be able to maintain non-store app installs. There’s recent news that Google is no longer providing update packages the way they used to which will make it harder on Graphene to update stuff too.
We can’t assume that Google’s next update will not functionally block the ability for GrapheneOS as well.
I believe Google plans to use Google Play Services to block side loaded apps. By default, GrapheneOS does not come with Google Play Services installed. I am not sure how things would work if the sandboxes version of Google Play Services that GrapheneOS provides is installed.
The issue about maintaining/updating GrapheneOS is a separate issue from side loading apps. That was due to Google shifting the development of Android to a closed source model and only open sourcing the final code. This limits the Grapheme team’s ability to anticipate changes and make any required adjustments until after the release of Android.
The Graphene OS team have said that they are going to continue, have received the pixel 10 phones they ordered and have put out a statement regarding this issue.
Our Pixel 10 support will likely only be possible to complete after we finish porting to Android 16 QPR1 which is being released in September.
They don’t know IF they can even support it until they figure out the new releases that are jacking up their dev cycle.
It will be significantly more work than usual to support the new Pixel 10 phones since Android 16 removed the Pixel device trees from the Android Open Source Project. However, that was already only part of what we need for device support and we worked around it by expanding our automated tooling.
This is exactly the issue I’m referencing. Google can completely sabotage this route. We don’t know yet.
Edit: I should clarify that they did say they’re trying to continue, but should they not be able to crack the device tree issues they will be stuck. Nothing they released said that they’ve figured this issue out yet.
Sure, but the problem is the ecosystem of alternatives stores effectively collapsing or falling under Google’s control. That will affect everybody who uses them, whether on GrapheneOS, LineageOS or certified devices.
For my next phone it will be between a used Pixel with Graphene OS and the Fairphone 6 with the de-Googled e/OS option. A modern Pixel would be a little better for CPU, camera and RAM, but the Fairphone has decent hardware specs and tries to be more ethical about the environment and its suppliers, and it has a replaceable battery. The Fairphone is expensive in the USA though.
Recently a user here did the math on that and the fair/eco part of fairphone is really miniscule (they spend less than 5$ per phone and a big part of that are fairwashing credits).
Unless you need the repairability or the specific specs, you might be better off to buy a cheaper phone and just donate money to a good cause.
We currently sell and ship Jolla C2 within the European Union, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Switzerland.
From a cursory glance, they don’t ship to any of the largest smartphone markets. That’s likely why you don’t hear much about them as opposed to any of the global distributors.
It actually looks decent, and their C2 phone looks reasonable though not premium (8GB RAM, 4G LTE, a 1600x720 screen and no fingerprint reader are not brilliant specs, though they’ll do the job and it’s a nice looking phone). The OS subscription might put some people off though: you get one year of updates and then have to pay about €5 per month.
I’m pretty curious about the C2, as well, but don’t live in their market, and don’t want to pay 100% of the phone cost in shipping fees, etc. And after all that, I have no guarantee of support. As for the €60 per year, my latest phone is an S22 Ultra, half of whose features I no longer use due to the updated Samsung TOS. I can absorb that cost for the sake of updates, if they’d let me.
The forums suggest there are quite a lot of bugs and the device is slow. I hope Sailfish OS continues to improve but for a daily driver I’m leaning towards Graphene OS as the best option for now.
Everywhere I talk about some corporation removing features you bought and paid for, someone says that “they personally would never used that feature”, or “serves them right for buying from that company”.
Plus their mission to try to make a phone with fair materials and compensation in their entire production chain. Is it perfect, of course not, but a lot better than all other brands.
Child slaves labored to make raw materials for the device you’re holding. Your purchase kept the market rate for raw materials high, encouraging the continued use of slave labor. Don’t you feel bad?
We do the best we can with the decisions we have available to us.
From a practical standpoint it’s secure enough for me, and I value the fair sourcing of components and labor a lot more than the little I am losing on security.
And it’s not surprising he has that answer. I don’t think I’ve seen but one video from this guy but it was him talking about how that lead Dev from graphene was harassing him. And up to that point he was super big into graphene apparently.
Pixels are inferior to even the cheapest android phones out there. I have a two year old Motorola stylus that cost $100 and battery life is still over two days and I’ve dropped it a million times. Evey pixel I’ve owned had major issues with screen or battery life not worth the price when google can’t handle making reliable hardware. Plus I have a headphone Jack.
I mean everyone has anecdotal evidence to “prove” their point… I have a Pixel 7a that still lasts 2 days and I’ve dropped it a million times and the screen hasn’t cracked. It’s also 2+ years old.
We had a 4a (battery life) and 5a (sudden screen failure). Both failed just after warranty lapsed. The 5a made it just outside the extended screen warranty period. These are well documented issues and I’ve read about issues with newer gens as well. It just doesn’t make any sense not to support cheaper phones when it comes to custom roms because you’re voiding the warranty on it. With the pixels track record of poor quality I’d rather not risk $1k+ just to run custom firmware.
Purism scams their customers left, right, and center and have for effectively their entire existence. They should not be trusted, and their phone specs are basically from 2013 sold for $800.
So even if you’re idealistic enough to pay $800 for a phone that’d be in a landfill if it didn’t have hardware privacy features, Purism will take that trust you have in them and screw you over – delay you for as long as they need to/can/want with no recourse for a refund outside of maybe the courts. After which you hope you either get a functioning product or get good luck with a disorganized, opaque, scumfuck company like that.
You’re not being honest. They struggled to deliver their ambitious mainline Linux phone on time during Covid yes, but they eventually delivered. The fact that they did is a huge win for the mobile Linux ecosystem becoming a real contender just when we need it. All their other products are just fine.
NXP i.MX family debuted in 2013; Intel i7 family in 2008. Their phone uses a 2017 i.MX 8M Quad, the same year they crowdfunded their phone. 2017 i7 computers are equally not from 2008…
It still today remains one of the best ARM processors with open source drivers without an integrated baseband. It means basically any flavour of Linux can install on the device, with a significant layer of protection from carrier conduited attacks. Other modules have similar tradeoffs between performance and interoperability/security.
Want better specs? We either need SoC companies to release more of their drivers open source, or more people to patiently reverse engineer closed source ones.
They struggled to deliver their ambitious mainline Linux phone on time during Covid yes, but they eventually delivered.
And for the people who requested refunds who waited months if not never received them? Despite them moving back their timeline literal years with repeated delays? I don’t care what challenges they faced; they knowingly took people’s money and refused to give it back to them when they couldn’t deliver. It’s their responsibility to be prepared for challenges. And in some extreme edge case where they couldn’t have been prepared, it’s their responsibility to be transparent about that to the people who gave them over a million dollars (let alone purchased the product after the Kickstarter was finished). I suppose too that the pandemic affected Purism in January 2019 when they were supposed to deliver their product?
The fact that they did is a huge win for the mobile Linux ecosystem becoming a real contender just when we need it.
The Librem 5 is not a contender for shit. It’s so overpriced that it can only be successfully marketed to people who care so deeply about their privacy that they’re willing to use an inconvenient mobile OS, get completely boned on hardware specs, and deal with a company notorious for fucking over its customers. Purism’s behavior is a fucking embarrassment to the Linux ecosystem.
NXP i.MX family debuted in 2013; Intel i7 family in 2008. Their phone uses a 2017 i.MX 8M Quad, the same year they crowdfunded their phone.
That CPU is based on the ARM Cortex-A53 and Cortex-M4, launched in 2012 and 2009, respectively.
2017 i7 computers are equally not from 2008…
When I say “2013”, I’m not talking about the debut year of i.MX. I’m talking about the fact that you can compare this phone side-by-side with a Galaxy S4 or S5. 3 GB of RAM, 32 GB of eMMC storage, a 720 x 1440p IPS display, no NFC, USB 3.0, an 8/13 MP front/back camera (which they inexplicably call “Mpx”; good job, guys), 802.11n Wi-Fi, no waterproofing, and a shitty-ass i.MX 8M CPU. I still remember watching a trailer for the Librem 5’s continuing development, and as they were scrolling through a web browser, it was noticeably stuttering. This was years and years ago; I can’t even imagine it today.
It still today remains one of the best ARM processors with open source drivers without an integrated baseband. It means basically any flavour of Linux can install on the device, with a significant layer of protection from carrier conduited attacks. Other modules have similar tradeoffs between performance and interoperability/security.
I do not give even the slightest inkling of a shit try to confirm or deny this, so I’m just going to assume it’s 100% true, because it’s not relevant to the point that the spec is absolute trash and being sold for $800. If you are not absolutely married to privacy, this is not a sellable product in 2025.
Want better specs? We either need SoC companies to release more of their drivers open source, or more people to patiently reverse engineer closed source ones.
Actually, if I want better specs, I’m just going to go out and buy a phone that isn’t from Purism. It really sucks that it’s not open, private hardware, but Purism is such a scummy company that so wantonly fucks over their customers that I wouldn’t touch the Librem 5 even if I could justify spending $800 for that spec just for privacy’s sake.
It works well enough to use as a daily driver on Bookworm and Trixie (and some other distros) but would only recommend if you’re ok with Linux, and either are a developer or don’t mind some rough parts around the edges.
E.g. some carriers uses 2 APNs, one for internet and one for MMS. You can send/receive on both, but the router is not yet complete, so if you send/receive media or use a group chat via text, need to switch to MMS mode in settings to do so first, then switch back to internet. Not an issue on most carriers as they only have 1 APN, but an edge case for the ones that do have this configuration.
So ,i install graphene OS on a pixel phone ,problem solved
Well the assumption is that the Graphene team will be able to maintain non-store app installs. There’s recent news that Google is no longer providing update packages the way they used to which will make it harder on Graphene to update stuff too.
We can’t assume that Google’s next update will not functionally block the ability for GrapheneOS as well.
I believe Google plans to use Google Play Services to block side loaded apps. By default, GrapheneOS does not come with Google Play Services installed. I am not sure how things would work if the sandboxes version of Google Play Services that GrapheneOS provides is installed.
The issue about maintaining/updating GrapheneOS is a separate issue from side loading apps. That was due to Google shifting the development of Android to a closed source model and only open sourcing the final code. This limits the Grapheme team’s ability to anticipate changes and make any required adjustments until after the release of Android.
The Graphene OS team have said that they are going to continue, have received the pixel 10 phones they ordered and have put out a statement regarding this issue.
No they didn’t…
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/25099-pixel-10-still-too-early-to-ask-us-when-it-will-be-supported
They don’t know IF they can even support it until they figure out the new releases that are jacking up their dev cycle.
This is exactly the issue I’m referencing. Google can completely sabotage this route. We don’t know yet.
Edit: I should clarify that they did say they’re trying to continue, but should they not be able to crack the device tree issues they will be stuck. Nothing they released said that they’ve figured this issue out yet.
Sure, but the problem is the ecosystem of alternatives stores effectively collapsing or falling under Google’s control. That will affect everybody who uses them, whether on GrapheneOS, LineageOS or certified devices.
Only a matter of time before Google will shut that down too.
GrapheneOS is one of the last bastions of freedom remaining. I don’t know what we’ll do if that happens.
For my next phone it will be between a used Pixel with Graphene OS and the Fairphone 6 with the de-Googled e/OS option. A modern Pixel would be a little better for CPU, camera and RAM, but the Fairphone has decent hardware specs and tries to be more ethical about the environment and its suppliers, and it has a replaceable battery. The Fairphone is expensive in the USA though.
https://shop.fairphone.com/the-fairphone-gen-6-e-operating-system
https://www.wired.com/review/fairphone-gen-6/
Edit: After reading this thread I would lean towards Graphene OS:
https://lemmy.ca/post/50750274
Recently a user here did the math on that and the fair/eco part of fairphone is really miniscule (they spend less than 5$ per phone and a big part of that are fairwashing credits). Unless you need the repairability or the specific specs, you might be better off to buy a cheaper phone and just donate money to a good cause.
Here is the original post: https://lemmy.world/post/32013987
sailfish?
I’ve quickily looked up Sailfish and am shocked that we haven’t been hearing more about it. Why is so? Where’s the catch?
From a cursory glance, they don’t ship to any of the largest smartphone markets. That’s likely why you don’t hear much about them as opposed to any of the global distributors.
It actually looks decent, and their C2 phone looks reasonable though not premium (8GB RAM, 4G LTE, a 1600x720 screen and no fingerprint reader are not brilliant specs, though they’ll do the job and it’s a nice looking phone). The OS subscription might put some people off though: you get one year of updates and then have to pay about €5 per month.
I’m pretty curious about the C2, as well, but don’t live in their market, and don’t want to pay 100% of the phone cost in shipping fees, etc. And after all that, I have no guarantee of support. As for the €60 per year, my latest phone is an S22 Ultra, half of whose features I no longer use due to the updated Samsung TOS. I can absorb that cost for the sake of updates, if they’d let me.
The forums suggest there are quite a lot of bugs and the device is slow. I hope Sailfish OS continues to improve but for a daily driver I’m leaning towards Graphene OS as the best option for now.
Linux phones I guess. I really don’t know.
A phone that works with proper linux: PostmarketOS, Sailfish OS or Ubuntu Touch.
Probably own a privacy-invasive phone and use it as little as possible.
The problem is not solved if open source Android apps get abandoned because the vast majority of users can’t use them anymore.
The delictable irony that if you don’t want to use their os, you need to use their phone
Yep ,thats is the way
Everywhere I talk about some corporation removing features you bought and paid for, someone says that “they personally would never used that feature”, or “serves them right for buying from that company”.
In other words, go fuck yourself.
Just give google more money, no thanks. Fairphone with lineage OS is a better option in my opinion.
Fairphone is contributing directly to the linux kernel so they have my vote!
Plus their mission to try to make a phone with fair materials and compensation in their entire production chain. Is it perfect, of course not, but a lot better than all other brands.
Easy. Refurbed phone. Google didn’t get a penny.
That’s keeps the used price for pixels high, which encourages people to buy new pixels cause they know it has a good resale market.
Child slaves labored to make raw materials for the device you’re holding. Your purchase kept the market rate for raw materials high, encouraging the continued use of slave labor. Don’t you feel bad?
We do the best we can with the decisions we have available to us.
I agree, that’s why I have a Fairphone. It’s a way to minimize that impact.
Unfortunately a Fairphone is not a secure device.
From a practical standpoint it’s secure enough for me, and I value the fair sourcing of components and labor a lot more than the little I am losing on security.
what will most people do, who don’t have a google pixel?
lol the pinned comment on this video is
“Ok, so what do i switch to now? I refuse apple. So what do i have to chose from?”,
and Louis’ reply is “nothing”.
And it’s not surprising he has that answer. I don’t think I’ve seen but one video from this guy but it was him talking about how that lead Dev from graphene was harassing him. And up to that point he was super big into graphene apparently.
Google pixel 8 pro is now 559 euro in holland
Yes, throw more money towards the company doing this, sounds solid
Pixel phones cost several times what my phone costed.
Pixels are inferior to even the cheapest android phones out there. I have a two year old Motorola stylus that cost $100 and battery life is still over two days and I’ve dropped it a million times. Evey pixel I’ve owned had major issues with screen or battery life not worth the price when google can’t handle making reliable hardware. Plus I have a headphone Jack.
I mean everyone has anecdotal evidence to “prove” their point… I have a Pixel 7a that still lasts 2 days and I’ve dropped it a million times and the screen hasn’t cracked. It’s also 2+ years old.
Likewise, Pixel 6 with similar track record but nearing 4 years. Plus it sits on my motorcycle handlebars for 18000km+ so it’s hardly been coddled.
This all just makes me so sad about the future of phones. What a shit set of decisions we have coming up.
We had a 4a (battery life) and 5a (sudden screen failure). Both failed just after warranty lapsed. The 5a made it just outside the extended screen warranty period. These are well documented issues and I’ve read about issues with newer gens as well. It just doesn’t make any sense not to support cheaper phones when it comes to custom roms because you’re voiding the warranty on it. With the pixels track record of poor quality I’d rather not risk $1k+ just to run custom firmware.
pixels battery life is lacking, but they sacrificed that for an AI-spy ware machine anyways.
https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa
https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone
Purism scams their customers left, right, and center and have for effectively their entire existence. They should not be trusted, and their phone specs are basically from 2013 sold for $800.
So even if you’re idealistic enough to pay $800 for a phone that’d be in a landfill if it didn’t have hardware privacy features, Purism will take that trust you have in them and screw you over – delay you for as long as they need to/can/want with no recourse for a refund outside of maybe the courts. After which you hope you either get a functioning product or get good luck with a disorganized, opaque, scumfuck company like that.
Thanks for sharing so looks like that one is not an option anymore
You’re not being honest. They struggled to deliver their ambitious mainline Linux phone on time during Covid yes, but they eventually delivered. The fact that they did is a huge win for the mobile Linux ecosystem becoming a real contender just when we need it. All their other products are just fine.
NXP i.MX family debuted in 2013; Intel i7 family in 2008. Their phone uses a 2017 i.MX 8M Quad, the same year they crowdfunded their phone. 2017 i7 computers are equally not from 2008…
It still today remains one of the best ARM processors with open source drivers without an integrated baseband. It means basically any flavour of Linux can install on the device, with a significant layer of protection from carrier conduited attacks. Other modules have similar tradeoffs between performance and interoperability/security.
Want better specs? We either need SoC companies to release more of their drivers open source, or more people to patiently reverse engineer closed source ones.
And for the people who requested refunds who waited months if not never received them? Despite them moving back their timeline literal years with repeated delays? I don’t care what challenges they faced; they knowingly took people’s money and refused to give it back to them when they couldn’t deliver. It’s their responsibility to be prepared for challenges. And in some extreme edge case where they couldn’t have been prepared, it’s their responsibility to be transparent about that to the people who gave them over a million dollars (let alone purchased the product after the Kickstarter was finished). I suppose too that the pandemic affected Purism in January 2019 when they were supposed to deliver their product?
The Librem 5 is not a contender for shit. It’s so overpriced that it can only be successfully marketed to people who care so deeply about their privacy that they’re willing to use an inconvenient mobile OS, get completely boned on hardware specs, and deal with a company notorious for fucking over its customers. Purism’s behavior is a fucking embarrassment to the Linux ecosystem.
That CPU is based on the ARM Cortex-A53 and Cortex-M4, launched in 2012 and 2009, respectively.
When I say “2013”, I’m not talking about the debut year of i.MX. I’m talking about the fact that you can compare this phone side-by-side with a Galaxy S4 or S5. 3 GB of RAM, 32 GB of eMMC storage, a 720 x 1440p IPS display, no NFC, USB 3.0, an 8/13 MP front/back camera (which they inexplicably call “Mpx”; good job, guys), 802.11n Wi-Fi, no waterproofing, and a shitty-ass i.MX 8M CPU. I still remember watching a trailer for the Librem 5’s continuing development, and as they were scrolling through a web browser, it was noticeably stuttering. This was years and years ago; I can’t even imagine it today.
I do not give even the slightest inkling of a shit try to confirm or deny this, so I’m just going to assume it’s 100% true, because it’s not relevant to the point that the spec is absolute trash and being sold for $800. If you are not absolutely married to privacy, this is not a sellable product in 2025.
Actually, if I want better specs, I’m just going to go out and buy a phone that isn’t from Purism. It really sucks that it’s not open, private hardware, but Purism is such a scummy company that so wantonly fucks over their customers that I wouldn’t touch the Librem 5 even if I could justify spending $800 for that spec just for privacy’s sake.
Does it…work yet? Last I heard phone calls were dodgy…
It works well enough to use as a daily driver on Bookworm and Trixie (and some other distros) but would only recommend if you’re ok with Linux, and either are a developer or don’t mind some rough parts around the edges.
E.g. some carriers uses 2 APNs, one for internet and one for MMS. You can send/receive on both, but the router is not yet complete, so if you send/receive media or use a group chat via text, need to switch to MMS mode in settings to do so first, then switch back to internet. Not an issue on most carriers as they only have 1 APN, but an edge case for the ones that do have this configuration.
Yeah, that’s a really rough edge, but also…if it doesn’t apply to you… 🤔
Good to hear that it’s a potential option, if you do your research.
For which one? so far both are option outside iOS and android
Either one, I mean Linux mobile in general
C2 works on sailfish linux
Sailfish’s GUI is proprietary. I’d rather have a fully FOSS system (or rather, however much is possible).
Fair point
What’s C2?
From the link I pasted https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-community-phone