Nearly a third of Americans – 30% – say people may have to resort to violence in order to get the country back on track, according to the latest PBS News/NPR/Marist poll.
It’s a sharp rise from 18 months ago, when 19% of Americans said the same.
Historically, it has always taken violence to remove fascists from power.
Fundamentally, elections were designed to be a peaceful alternative to the peasantry revolting against the government and beheading their king. As Americans come to grip with the reality that their elections are meaningless, their politicians are bought and their only alternative to fascism is fascism-lite with a pride pin (no trans ppl allowed though) this attitude will continue to fester.
There is no historical precedent for an electoral solution to a descent into fascism.
There is no historical precedent for an electoral solution to massive wealth inequality.
It’s a horrific moment to see that people honestly believe that there’s no other alternative at this point than to resort to political violence.
I mean… is it? I think it’s pretty obvious in the context of the regime essentially giving itself carte blanch to perpetrate political violence on its desired scapegoats and opponents.
I’m frankly getting pretty fucking tired of people complaining about how this is a startling development and being shocked by what’s happening. They wrote a playbook back in 2019. They published it on the open internet. They said they would follow it. They are now following it. You are not allowed to be surprised by any of this.
This country is BUILT on political violence. The revolutionary war. The civil war. Hundreds of thousands of people died in those conflicts. Only more recently have non-violent protests accomplished anything and that was only possible because of the more free atmosphere those wars established in this country. That freedom is now almost entirely gone. What choice do people have left?
Don’t forget the riots and strikes between 1900 and 1920 (or 30?).
Successful application of violence today is complicated by the sophistication of surveillance and the electronic, centralized distribution of money.
It’s difficult to pull together a large enough coalition to be able to fight effectively because the process of finding those people is short circuited by early discovery.
Nonviolence is the only way until a large enough segment of the population is desperate enough to trigger action.
Before that happens, effective leaders must be found and a support network must be readied to go into action quickly to professionalize and unify it when it happens, but before that is used to manage nonviolent action…
While I agree that non-violent is the way to go, I think we need to change our definition of “violence.”
Property destruction should not be considered violent. Especially when precautions are specifically taken to ensure that no people were harmed during act of property destruction or sabotage.
On the other side of things, actions such as destroying wildlife habitat or polluting the air, water, and soil systems of the Earth should be considered “violence.” It is violence towards all of humanity, and towards life itself.
Incredibly recently. The Civil Rights movement included advocacy for political violence, and arguably one of the only reasons it worked was Malcolm X and the Black Panthers saying “hey here’s our alternative if our nonviolent fight doesn’t work, we’re all strapped and willing to hand out more guns if shit requires it”.
that was only possible because of the more free atmosphere those wars established in this country.
And a healthy dose of “or else” political violence.
But Trump (lied and) said he didn’t know anything about Project 2025.
You’re not allowed to say the part in brackets without summoning the Gestapo.
You can’t argue nazis out of your government. Churchill didn’t convince Hitler to back out of Poland over a friendly cuppa.
violence is already happening, it’s just that people are too scared to fight back against it
We need a general strike. The country would be brought to its knees if deprived of profit and labor. That tactic was extremely effective in Chile in 2019, and had they not fallen for the trick of liberal reform, they would’ve had a successful revolution on their hands with virtually no bloodshed.
If you aren’t in a union, then please consider joining the IWW to unionize your workplace (bonus: you’ll get higher wages, better benefits, and more time off if you succeed!) to strengthen a general strike if we finally manage to enact one (the UAW is planning one for May 1st 2028, but it could happen sooner)
And for our international friends, you should join one as well, as fascism is gaining momentum globally. If your country isn’t listed below, just contact the IWW directly in the link above.
Can you afford not to get paid for 2 weeks? If so you’re in the minority. Most people can’t. Not to mention they have kids they are worried about, medical conditions that they can barely afford even with insurance. Rising housing and grocery costs. Etc…
I’m not trying to be a downer. I would love to see this happen, but we need a “realistic” way to accomplish it, to convince a majority to participate.
Unions build up strike-funds with membership dues so that members can continue to receive a salary while striking, that’s why unions are so essential for working class people to be able to flex their power non-violently.
Consider that Chile is a much less wealthy country than the US. but was able to successfully commit to a general strike for over a month.
Honest question, how much of the US population do you think is unionized? Without looking it up
I’m familiar with the depressing statistic already, a little under 10%.
However, bear in mind that the majority of the most critical infrastructure for making profit, such as ports, trains, trucking, and medical care have the highest rates of unionized jobs, and would still be incredibly effective for a general strike (Generally only 3.5% of the population would need to participate to have a meaningful effect). Even with our abyssal rate of unionization, we still hold incredible leverage if we choose to use it.
The UAW has a general strike planned for May 1st 2028, which has real odds of working. Unfortunately it’s still 2 years out, and by that time may be too late. I’m hoping it’s moved up at some point.
1-2%
Wrong way of thinking, buddy boy.
If you can’t afford to go without pay for 2 weeks now, then where do you think you’ll be in 2 years time?
Act now while you’re breathing, for the sake of being able to breathe.
People worried about making it the next two weeks won’t be thinking about two years from now.
Realistic way is people just drop out of consumer economy to the fullest degree possible for them. Cancel all unnecessary subscriptions, shop local for only necessities. Look how quickly Disney blinked just because of a wave of cancellations, now do that everywhere.
People are going to cite the Kimmel cancellations until we legally aren’t allowed to. I… am skeptical.
A common talking point was that the real danger isn’t people who cancel out of solidarity: it is people who realize they have a disney plus subscription they haven’t used since Mandalorian Season 2. Because those are the bread and butter for these services and once people look at their bill and realize how much they have been spending over the years, they tend to not come back. And this all lined up with Disney (allegedly?) wanting to do a cost increase and enough “mainstream media” pointing out that Kimmel didn’t actually say anything even slightly controversial.
Contrast that with stuff like Sucker Punch firing the dev who made a Mario and Luigi joke and tripling down on it… and nobody giving a shit because Ghost of Yotei is coming out! Or all the attempts at encouraging people to support BDS boycotts. I mean, Palestine was the single biggest issue and the sole reason the Democrats lost, right? Then… why is everyone leaping at new gamepass deals and so forth?
Time and time again it is shown that people just don’t boycott luxury goods. If you can afford a luxury good you “earned it” and will find every possible excuse to keep buying it. What DOES tend to work is contacting the advertisers. Much like chuds contacted credit card companies to get gay games off Steam et al. Because, much like contacting your elected official, they understand that people actually caring enough to pick up the phone means a lot of people are REALLY angry.
Palestine was not the sole reason Democrats lost or the single biggest issue for voters according to the polling data. There was a small percentage for whom it was their sole or primary motivation in voting.
Can you afford not to get paid for 2 weeks? If so you’re in the minority. Most people can’t.
The general strike is being planned for almost 3 years out. We would have to save less than 2% of our paycheck to more than cover 2 weeks without being paid. We need to normalize preparing for a general strike, and be willing to help each other if needed when the time comes
Can they afford to live under a fascist dictatorship that crushes dissenters and disappears citizens at will? It seems that by “realistic” resistance you mean “without inconvenience” but we’re never going to get to that point. That seems to be what people are hoping for and it just doesn’t work that way. The longer we wait the more sacrifice will be required.
No I mean “realistic” as in getting enough people to participate that it would actually have an impact.
Will those people attempt to make an impact if the cost is more than inconvenience?
What? What are you talking about? If enough people don’t participate then it won’t make a difference. And you’re asking if they would still participate if it costs too much?? I’m sure many people would love to join but feel due to their current circumstances that they can’t. That demo of people is being overlooked and shit on for some stupid reason.
Perhaps this is why trump just declared war on nonprofits. They could potentially pull together resources to keep people fed during a coordinated nationwide strike.
They in general exist to tackle goals directly opposed to fascist regimes, so it males sense to target them.
Education, social justice, feeding the hungry, and protecting nature are all examples of goals Trump’s regime are staunchly against.
That’s why mutual aid organizations are essential. They operate outside of the legal system, so can’t be directly targeted as easily. If you or anyone else reading this have the time, please consider joining your local mutual aid group. That could be Food Not Bombs, a different group local to your city or town, or even your local church if you’re in a rural area.
If you don’t have one in your area, start one! Here’s a little guide on how and where to find likeminded folk to start one with: https://infosec.exchange/@tinker/113589807117870451
Thanks for the link.Trump is going after those next - nonprofits.
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To add on to this:
Look what happens when people protest or go on strike. Everyone SAYS they are in full solidarity with the workers at Starbucks. But they also gotta get to work and that picket line is really holding up traffic… and now they also need to drive three blocks away to a different Starbucks. Look, something something no ethical consumption under capitalism so fuck you I earned this coffee milkshake and maybe if you worked harder you could buy one too.
A General Strike requires a fairly overwhelming majority of support to begin with. And, if we had that… we wouldn’t be inching ever closer to a civil war.
Just because something is hard doesn’t mean we shouldn’t with for it.
It isn’t about being “hard”. It is about being “effective” and understanding the circumstances and impact.
But also… yeah, “this is going to be really hard” IS a consideration when it comes to social action. Because you have very few chances at that before people get bored or get demoralized. One of the most cliche examples are all the college kids who inevitably get super behind a candidate who doesn’t win and then they start insisting that voting doesn’t matter.
But the inverse of this is a very real consideration amongst the people who organize protests and resistance. There is a shocking amount of effort “behind the scenes” to downplay stupid fucking bullshit like “make your profile picture black”. Because people do it and say “I helped” and start ignoring you. And while there is a LOT of discussion and argument regarding the utility of the parade protests… at least those get people outside.
And the start of any form of action is to understand what the impact of said action is and whether it is even feasible to begin with.
Can you afford not to get paid for 2 weeks? If so you’re in the minority. Most people can’t.
Let’s be honest most people living in first world countries can indeed do that but they don’t like to renounce to all the commodities they have.
This is the only path other than violence and just as likely not to happen.
I agree that a general strike is the absolute least that should be done. But a general strike would have to hit the ground with the EXPECTATION that it will get violent.
It’s inevitable that Cheeto will try to use his jackbooted thugs to crack down hard, and taking it meekly and then hoping to sue over it later won’t be an option.
When the MAGA S.A. come to put you down, they aren’t going to stop. I’m not saying that the strikers should start violence. But go in eyes open with the understanding that a a certain point, you all are going to have to make the fuckers bleed because they won’t think twice about doing it to you.
At this point I’m tired of people trying to give a prescription for the ‘right way to do things’
“A man who procrastinates in his choosing will inevitably have his choice made for him by circumstance.” Hunter S. Thompson
The problem is there absolutely is many, many wrong paths to take, and we have to learn from past attempts to avoid their mistakes. Notice how the arab spring movement, while initially promising, ultimately failed to prevent a new authoritarian regime from taking hold in most of those countries.
There are going to be different prescriptions from all political ideologies, but most of them can be dismissed to narrow down the possibilities.
- Right-Libertarians will advise we privatize everything and remove regulations - Doesn’t work. Creates the conditions for Neo-fuedalism and capital dominating every aspect of life.
- Moderates/Social Democrats will suggest we can reform our way out of this by voting for the right people - Didn’t work in Nazi Germany, didn’t work in Franco’s Spain. Due to corporate capture, they ultimately cannot resolve the issues that cause people to foolishly shift toward fascism in hopes to escape those issues.
- Marxist-Leninists will say we just need a revolution with a Vanguard party - Doesn’t work. Results in extremely unfree authoritarian states like the USSR, North Korea, and China’s CCP. Basically state capitalism under the guise of socialism in name only.
That leaves the Libertarian-left/Anarchists. We have evidence that their methods result in pretty sweet outcomes, they just have never survived very long due to the whole world usually being against them.
Okay, so what do we do to in our case? First off, avoiding a civil war or extreme violence is vastly preferable, as the alternative has some big downsides. The best non-violent method we have at our disposal is a General Strike, which directly targets the machinery that fascist states rely on. Combined with mutual aid networks and civil disobedience, it has a rather good chance of preventing a fascist takeover with a minimum of violence.
The alternative is straight up revolution, which requires the participating population to be educated on a shared vision, methods to organize, and how to avoid centralizing power structures or cult of personalities which lend themselves to co-option by the above mentioned groups.
I 100% agree with the overall point that there are very bad outcomes to getting this wrong, but my point is that we are out of time. Even if we manage to pull off a general strike with mural aid and civil disobedience we could eventually all have to come together on a direction or course of action going forward and I dont see that happening and even in the best of circumstances I think the country balkanizes/otherwise dissolves after a series of geographically and ideologically independent insurgencies rise up from the chaos that’s about to happen.
I’m not trying to be a doomer, but I think the time to steer into the skid has passed
Even if you are in a union, join the IWW as well. Most modern unions are insufficiently radical for what’s coming, and all the best organizers I know are IWW dual-carders
Agree 100%! For others reading, here’s a good article on the merits of dual-carding.
I’m in favor of both options at once
Gotta overturn the Taft Hartley Act to even make that legal.
If the law would lead us to fascism, then the law must not be followed. They will come for us regardless of if we follow the law or not.
Well if an ICE officer stops my husband based on his appearance we’ve both agreed that we should resist that arrest.
That would end in violence and probably our deaths. What else can we do? Let them take us god knows where?
And after all that training we’ve had to never let kidnappers take you to a secondary location! There really isn’t another choice.
Guns do not protect you from Fox News.
I disagree with Lemmy (and the growing public sentiment), but for the opposite extreme reason: we are beyond violence changing things. This is a propaganda/reality war, and truth doesn’t really matter.
America, you have the right to bear arms for a reason.
This reflects a feeling of being backed into a corner. What else are we going to do when our political views and goals and ffs human beings are being criminalized? Every decent thing getting rolled back and every horrible thing dialed up to 11. Fuck republicans. One way or another they will regret this. Whether people vote them out or get violent with them remains to be seen but this will not last, obviously.
I can’t wait until the day that these filth learn that we outnumber them 10 to 1.
It’s up to them how they learn this fact.
Sounds delusional to me… if we outnumber them 10 to 1 why the fuck is a republican sitting on the highest seat in the country? Everyone just sat out the vote??? Okay. Then what the fuck do you expect them to do to republicans if they can’t even vote?
Collusion and deception
Idiots got tired of not being allowed to be racist.
Harris was thoroughly unappealing to many, and the Democrats were masterfully outmaneuvered by the Republicans seeding shit about Gaza and rallying minorities against her.
In swing states there was definitely vote manipulation. You had Musk offering to pay people to vote.
I would say after the outcome of Project 2025, he’s finally pissed off minorities and farmers, and business owners, now he’s working on the military.
Now he’s threatening to send the US military in against cities.
I think the only one delusional here is you. votes will tell eventually.
You left out that we had years of dems talking about DACA but harris/biden tried to triangulate on immigration leading to latinos not voting in many places.
That’s what I used to think too.
Then, around Trump’s first campaign, I talked to plenty of Latinos that voted Republican. They didn’t generally give a fuck about immigration. They were quite happy for the borders to be shut down, where they came from, everything was very fuck you, I got mine. They’re more than happy to pull the ladders up now that they’re over here with their family to limit competition for those job sectors.
They also vote Republican based on entrepreneurial and business wants. They either start small companies or work for small companies. And they see it as very much in their interest for those companies to prosper.
I kind of suspect at this point that they’d be a bit apprehensive to vote Republican with all the Gestapo bullshit going on, still, but I haven’t had any political talks with Latinos since Trump’s first campaign. It’s honestly hard to tell.
Those are not the people that didn’t vote afaik. Immigrants from mexico, central and south america tend to be more catholic and conservative. (Which is why its always actually been about racism) its generally younger latinos that will vote democrat but like all younger voters its more about turnout.
Imma just leave this here
Okay but without any sort of investigation or evidence this is just a tweet of a crazy rich person… which by the way if we start taking every one of this cunts tweets as fact then I guess that cave diver that saved all those people was actually a pedophile and I also suppose you believe we will colonize mars by 2030? Or that Neuralink can cure all diseases?
I know I’m outnumbered by conservatives in my area. And, while they might not voluntarily admit to bigotry, they do strongly believe in a hierarchy of power, and that failing to be obedient to a higher authority is justification for any punishment you (not them!) receive. They also believe that the laws should reflect “Biblical” teachings and that “The Church” (their church, not those Catholic “idol worshipers”) should be involved in health care, education, and the work place not just reflected in the laws.
They also tend to own guns and know how to use them, but that somewhat depends on their income. It’s an outsized spend, but when you are on food stamps, you aren’t also stockpiling ammo or acquiring more guns.
Everyone just sat out the vote???
Basically, yeah. Because they didn’t want to vote for the red genocide supporter, and they didn’t want to vote for the blue genocide supporter; because no matter what, they’re voting for genocide.
I mean, in reality, most people right now in the US are just upset that US foreign policy has finally reach US shores.
Sweet cherry picking bro. The comment as a whole responds to another whole comment, and here you are taking 5 words and making a whole reply about it. I’m sure Harris wanted to build concentration camps and strip the entire country of their rights, and tariff every country with a name too. You’re right, they’re both so bad you might as well just let Jesus take the wheel.
If she was so worried about Trump, why didnt she vocally oppose the US supporting genocide abroad?
So, yes, she wanted concentration camps. Did you think she was going to shut down the ones Obama opened on our southern border, or did you think they magically disappeared once Biden got elected?
Remember, she’s the “top cop” and cops love oppressing the working class.
Because they stole the source code to the election machines in 2020 and modified the software to cheat the 2024 election, subverting the will of the people.
If you can’t prove it or enforce it, it doesn’t really matter. Otherwise you sound just like them the first time Trump lost.
I’m terrified of it.
I’ve talked to relatives on both sides of my family who have experience those times and they have nothing good to say about it.
My grandmother went from hoping the Nazis would ignore her, to hoping the American bombs would miss her, to hoping that the Russian soldiers wouldn’t rape her.
My grandfather had guys from both the KMT and the CPC point guns at his head to try to get him to join (on separate occasions) and ended up a refugee.
Both China and Austria are doing very nicely now but boy did it suck getting there.
My grandmother went from hoping the Nazis would ignore her, to hoping the American bombs would miss her, to hoping that the Russian soldiers wouldn’t rape her.
Its a shame she didn’t just start fighting back instead of just hoping they’d ignore her.
Yeah. It’s a shame she didn’t get together with all her teenage friends and face off against the SS. That definitely would have stopped them in their tracks.
How do you think they were beaten? By running away?
And loads if French resistors were teenaged.
What was the single biggest success of the French resistance?
What would those teenagers have done differently to not end up like the White Rose?
They provided a massive amount of intelligence, without with, the advance of Allied forces would have been far slower, and far more bloody. They also freed quite a number of Allied POWs, and got them back past the lines. They also downed comms and infra against the Nazis to blind them and slow their advances. They were also a key reason France was able to rapidly rebuild it’s forces post WWII.
Do people just skip WWII history these days?
The fuck is wrong with you?
Some people are not fighters. The species is full of variation because we are cultural and depend on specialization. I state the obvious.
We all have choices to make. To live as a slave, or fight for freedom. Are some people just “naturally slaves”?
Soldiers require 2 to 20 people each providing support. You can resist without picking up a gun. Stop assuming.
Providing support isn’t the same as “hiding and hoping Nazis ignore me”. Spoiler: They wont ignore you for long, and you hoping they go away just allows them to centralize and build their power.
They aren’t afraid. They have the Department of War, and ICE to protect them and their property.
There are about 1.3 million active duty military, 137,000 federal law enforcement officers, and 800,000 total law enforcement in the country. There are about 350 million people in the United States. They are not even 1% of the population.
And remeber they could win a war agaisnt goat herders in Afghanistan. This is our soil, and americans are crazy armed.
Numbers alone are meaningless.
30%, 50%, 70% means nothing if no one takes action.
The French, the orcas, allegedly Luigi. We have to follow their example. Anything less is just glazing at how “comfy” sitting on the frying pan feels.
This is exactly how it’s being orchestrated. Pit the people against each other so the politicians and wealthy can get away with literal murder.
We are being governed by the “Epstein Elite”, literal pedophiles and sex traffickers and the idiots that kneel to them.
culture wars crap= aka, anti-wokeness, antivaxx, anti-trans.
not class wars=billionaires vs the not .01%
Well it’s true. You can’t be diplomatic with fascists. You can’t “get on the same level” with billionaires.
They have no reason to listen or care, unless we give them a reason to listen or care.
And no matter what, all violence is somehow leftist violence. Trump in his speech to the generals said that they need to deploy against ‘animals’ who fire at firefighters climbing ladders to save people. At first I was incredulous, but then I saw a comment that pointed out that not too long ago a Trump supporter really did fire at firefighters doing their jobs (and climbing ladders). Not only that, but he was the one who started the fire in the first place to bait them.
Yet it is our fault somehow…
Gee, almost as if Russian propaganda is working.
Before the Civil War one politician opined that if a war started you’d be able to mop up all the blood spilled with one handkerchief.
Anyone who thinks a new fight will be any easier has probably never been in a real fight.
I don’t think people realize that if a new US civil war kicked off the lines wouldn’t be as clear as north vs south. this would be state vs state, city vs city, neighbor vs neighbor. you could draw lines in your god damn sub division/street.
And if it were alliances between states it would be a god damn logistical nightmare. Imagine California being allied with New York for example. or Hell Minnesota being allied with like Arizona or whatever. how do you move supplies, troops, and what have you between allied states when you got a shit ton of hostiles between the two.
Add to the fact that unlike the first civil war you now have US military bases all over the world. what happens when you got folks within the SAME base in the middle of Germany that suddenly don’t “agree” with each other?
Cluster fuck is an understatement.
There’d also be a shit-ton of drone warfare. Thousands will die without ever seeing their killers face. It’s also entirely possible AI will be bombing people and you’ll basically be killed by an algorithm.
Lets also not forget cyberwarfare, ranging from external to internal sources, ranging from doxxing people to invented news events with AI gen/manipulated images/audio/video, all the way up to knocking out public infrastructure, locking down hardware of local gov / businesses / banks with ransomware, etc.
Random, unofficial people are capable of either most or all of that.
Oh and of course if shit really kicks off, other countries will probably do the CIA’s signature move of funding arming and training various groups of people.
It’s also why we need to avoid violence and make the regime stumble into itself.
Which is why Chinese and Russia propaganda is attempting to stoke the fire (remember, they eliminated their opposition, so they don’t have the same experience inciting violence and they think they do).
It’s also why we need to avoid violence and make the regime stumble into itself.
Here’s the thing: It’s not going to fucking do that; it’s going to stumble into fascism. Fascism is stupid and incompetent, but it absolutely does not and will not fizzle out without a resistance as committed as the fascists themselves. I mean, which fascist movement in history “stumbled into itself?”
avoid violence
implying there has ever not been violence or that the current amount of violence by right wingers and the US government isn’t already, currently, right this fucking second even worse than before Trump’s first term
nonviolent resistance is an important front but it alone won’t be enough, I fear.
I saw one dream map where Canada drops two tentacles; one reaches down through the West all the way to San Diego, and the Eastern one reaches just north of Washington.
Humor aside, I agree with your take. A war of assassins and terrorists on both sides.
I’ll add one more note. Back in the day, the Irish Republican Army was the most feared underground in the world. They only had a handful of soldiers, but a superb organization. If a shooter was supposed to kill someone in Geneva, he’d have three or four cars waiting when he got to the airport, and each driver would know five places the shooter could stay. He’d have a choice of getaway drivers and extra safe houses and docotrs on tap.
How do you still manage that in the current (and worsening) surveillance state? I mean Luigi showed its possible for a lone wolf but I have to question being able to organize without being known. If you are caught organizing an antifa org then you’re also uber boned.
My point was that the next war won’t look anything like the last one.
Anyone who thinks that some molotov cocktails they made is going to bring down the system has another think coming.
In my view the only way organization would work is with the assistance of an enemy nation with the ability to circumvent the surveillance state (to ship in weapons, avoid communication eavesdropping, etc). And unfortunately those nations are mostly very, very far away.
I can think of a funnier map: Canada taking NY, Washington DC, … and Mexico (re)taking the west coast. Imagine if Texas ended up being again part of Mexico.
This is why the techniques pioneered by the native americans, and taught to colonial rebels by their experience fighting with them, would be the most likely path.
What is that, you ask? Guerilla warfare. It’s why we were able to defeat the most powerful colonial empire since the Romans.
We had the same conditions you described, a good chunk of people who still considered themselve British were mixed in with those who sought freedom.
Hard to hide from a drone.
Its going to be more like the people vs the federal gov.
If you think this, you should talk to your average republican voter. They will suck that orange cock until every bit of their wealth and ability to afford food is gone, and blame whoever fox news points a finger at that day.
It would be a clusterfuck. Especially since the type of violence some have advocated for recently is more akin to political assassination. We need to push back on the false equivalence of “person X says stuff I don’t agree with about perceived identities, therefore that speech ‘unpersons’ me, therefore it’s tantamount to a death threat, therefore actual violence against that person is justified.” You can literally find examples in these comments here.
If you have thousands of lonewolves each deciding unilaterally to assassinate (insert political opponent or public figure here) based on their own subjective perceptions, that no longer resembles a civil war, it more resembles a free-for-all hellscape.
I’d suggest a more useful concept is to form strong local communities committed to their own well being, mutual aid, and defense. Whatever that looks like for you in your area. Your mileage may vary. This is not legal advice.
There may have to be a free-for-all hellscape phase before getting to an organized something-better phase in the hit video game super mushyroom kingdom.
or Hell Minnesota being allied with like Arizona or whatever.
Isn’t Hell in Michigan?
So which hashtag would you use to end slavery?
Let’s turn it around.
I say violence won’t work.
Please explain in detail how you see the conflict going. I mean, I’m certain that the same people who couldn’t get past the DNC to get Bernie nominated will have no problem facing off against “military contractors” hired by the billionaire class.
Details, please.
I mean, I dread whatever violence is upcoming. But the reality is liberation has never happened with solely nonviolent means. Even King and Ghandi were buttressed by groups that used a variety of tactics, including violence, to force the state to come to the table with them.
This isn’t to advocate indiscriminate or senseless violence, but if your resistance group is nonviolent, and condemn any violence by other resistance groups, they have severely limited the range of tactics acceptable for use, and cede the power of justified violence to those in power only.
There’s a good book called “How Nonviolence Protects the State” that goes into depth on this, you should check it out.
In the end is a “good cop, bad cop” situation.
Give up and let them kill us, got it.
Still not seeing an actual plan.
I’m pretty sure we all agree that violence is a bad solution. The problem is we’re all out of good ones. What are the alternatives at this point?
Society upholding its part of the social bargain. Making these people feel afraid to express such opinions anymore. Without that long term, even physical violence will only buy temporary change. These people will always return if given the opportunity. And for generations Americans have been taught to tolerate intolerance.
I don’t see how we would make them afraid without any implied threat of violence though. Apart from that, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Through a threat of non-physical violence. Cutting them off from society. The reason we’re now debating about actual physical violence, about actually killing people. Is because society as a whole failed utterly to do that.
The last time this happened, the Civil War. Sherman was stopped much too early. As well as reconstruction. The fact that Confederate leadership was just allowed to surrender then allowed back into society with very little reprocussion. Not even to have all their property confiscated to repay for the damage they’d done. Let alone be exiled from the United States itself completely. That open sore was allowed to fester and become celebrated.
All of which served as an inspiration and a blueprint to the first wave of fascists in the early 20th century. It was all open and tolerated by society. That’s why it returned.
that lever is getting harder and harder to pull. already it’s impossible to get, for example, blatantly transphobic videos removed from youtube. The right’s campaign of reframing the consequences of their bigotry as “censorship” or “anti conservative bias” has unfortunately resonated with big tech.
and a lot of these nazi fucks feel like they are protected from the consequences of spouting their nazi fuck bullshit, probably because they increasingly are.
Violence works, otherwise there wouldn’t be any. We’ve put up a whole system of laws and police and investigators and courts and prisons in order to provide an alternative to violence. And even then, that system is itself backed up with a real threat of violence as well as its occasional localized deployment.
Yesterday’s “pep rally” where none of the military leaders dragged in had anything good to say about it suggests that there is not the overwhelming military support that Trump wants there to be. There are plenty of examples of far less powerful local forces successfully standing up to superpowers. Afghanistan is one. Wallachia is another.
When the entire federal government and many state governments have wholly abandoned the systems put together to avoid violence, and are in fact using the husks of those systems to apply violence to their opponents, we’ve already crossed the Rubicon.
I would like to throw in that Vietnam managed to not only win a war against the US/French/Australians… but to also win a war against China, after the US left Vietnam.
Basically, after the US and allies left Vietnam, Vietnam invaded Cambodia to put a stop to Pol Pot’s monstrous Khmer Rouge regime… and then China invaded Vietnam in response.
Vietnam repulsed them.
Despite being somewhere between considerably to vastly outnumbered, and fighting on multiple fronts.
The lesson of this story is do not fuck with the Viet Cong.
Say what you will about their version of ‘communism’ as a societal model, but holy shit does modern Vietnam have an insane military track record, with basically all its roots in guerilla warfare.
Violence fails 50% of the time, if not more. Every fight has a losing side.
Yup, and the side that loses is the side that wasn’t violent enough.
Read up on your history.
The US dropped something like five Hiroshimas a day on North Viet-Nam for years.
Germany killed many more enemy soldiers than Russia did.
Quality over quantity.
I can’t remember… Historically how has fascism been defeated? It’s right there, but for the life of me I can’t recall. Can you help?
I don’t remember, how many countries in Europe installed Fascist governments after Lenin came in?
I can cherry pick historical facts too.
Cherry picked? A world war is a cherry picked fact? Well now we know your delusions aren’t limited to present issues.
If you feel name calling is a viable tactic, I guess I’ll have to cede to your vast intelligence and withdraw. I may be deluded but I know when a conversation is a waste of time.
Name calling would be something like “you’re an idiot”. Saying you’re delusional for minimizing arguably the worst war in human history as a cherry picked fact is descriptive. But yes, this is a waste of time.
Idealists thinking that humans, notoriously violent mind you, have somehow evolved beyond violence WHILE VIOLENCE IS OCCURRING is absolutely insane!
Hi, my name is ICE, off to a death camp for you, according to me and my paramilitary goon squad who broke into your house/apartment at 3 am.
Don’t bother arguing, that’s what the gag and spit hood are for.
Violence is already here.
Thoughts and prayers are not an effective defense.
I would suggest either hiding, very, very well, which is probably impossible for most social media addicts who’ve publicized half of their existence, and for morons who think that their VPN isn’t keeping logs that can all be subpoenaed by the government…
Or maybe some kind of actual local community organizing, involving you know, actually speaking with your neighbors in meatspace, getting to know them, forming at bare minimum a plan for how to deal with say, food shortage, brown out/black out, etc.
And what’s the plan?
Going to start shooting Federal officers in the street?
Here’s what happens; Federal government shuts down the power to the whole city. Mobilizes the National Guard. Brings in overseas ‘military contractors’ like after Katrina.
Meanwhile, the 0.001% is at its beach house on Bali.
That all happens if you do nothing as well.
Infact it literally already is happening, half of what you describe as a potential reaction.
I am not going to give you the plan on an unsecured, publically accessible communication platform, you are a moron for asking for that.
I, personally, am crippled, and plan to do nothing and remain as close to an unthreatening digital ghost as possible.
That might, might actually work for me, because I am white, and have never registered as any kind of party affiliated voter, have never given my biometric data to any company or device for any reason, haven’t been on an air flight in 20 years, don’t have any social presence beyond this here psuedonomyous account.
Maybe you could start your plan with learning some basic opsec.
So what did Occupy Wall Street accomplish? What about the March for our Lives protests? What about the BLM riots? What did Bernie Sanders winning every single county in the 2016 WV Democrat Primary accomplish?
So, no actual plan?
Those examples were the plan. But peaceful revolution have been shown to be impossible.
Wishful thinking isn’t a plan.
Using a hashtag to end slavery isn’t much of one either.
Your point is valid.
It probably looks like a dystopian novel surveillance state, with drones watching you every time you leave your house (or not). All internet and phone communication would be monitored. And anyone caught saying things the government doesn’t like would suffer consequences.
With individual events prompting it and happening occasionally regardless of the surveillance state.
It’d look a lot more like the Irish than the Civil War. It’d be a country of everyone living in fear.
Sadly, the best defense we have is the fact that Trump is an idiot surrounded by dolts.
A competent leader would have locked everything down years ago.
A competent leader would have realized that the country is in a pretty good spot, he’s in a pretty good spot. They’d focus on helping the American people and improving the world and the country.
They wouldn’t be Hitler with more grift.
It takes a special amount of dumb to do the damage they’ve done. With their goals, they can’t, by definition, be competent.
I’ve been saying this since 2016.
All Trump had to do was call the Saudis on Inauguration Day and tell them that they were going to put $50 billion in his bank account.
Then he could have sat back and done nothing.
I’m a life long New Yorker, and I’ve seen Trump’s dumb for decades. Besides bankrupting casinos, he lost about a billion trying to buy the Plaza Hotel.
Everything is Russia’s fault, got it.
